Foals!

[sehxiellz]

hey guys,
i thought id post this and see what other people think, or if there is any suggestions you can throw at me

Ive been seriously considering putting my arabian mare to a warmblood stallion (been thinking about one of the Jaybee boys, or Grand Kavalier or a couple of others).
My girl is 16yrs (it would be her first foal) but i need something bigger and one i could take further, but she is just so beautiful and trainable that i would just adore a foal by her (crossed with a warmblood would be such a bonus)

I am starting to wonder whether it would be such a good idea. It is something i have been desperately wanting to do, but
a) being an older mare would she be able to cope - She is extremely healthy, fit, active etc
b) i dont really want to stop competing and have been considering leasing a competitive horse out and give her a break anyway, but it doesnt seem like anybody wants to put theirs out on lease :razz:..

Any thoughts about putting her to foal, and where i would be able to find a competition lease horse for a year or so would be great! :)

p.s i tried to right this as simple and short as i could:)

[jodles]

If it was me I would talk to my vet first about her age etc

[becca]

I would also be considering her size compared with a warmblood, I am no expert but I have heard of cases where mares have trouble foaling when they are put in foal to a much larger stallion

[Phoebe]

Her age is unlikely to be a significant problem if she is otherwise fit and healthy. Many mares will go on breeding into their 20's. If you are worried though, a vet will be able to do a check of her to make sure all is in order before you go ahead.

How big is the mare? I don't think a stallion a hand or so higher than her is likely to cause any trouble... I'd start to worry about more than about 2 hands higher though.

[Franca]

It's a little different to "go on foaling" than it is to have a first foal at 16, I think. If she were mine, I wouldn't do it ... but that's just me. :)

[Helen...]

Just from personal experience. We consulted a vet when we sent Spyder to stud to go in foal and she said there was no reason why not, even though she is an older mare she is in good condition etc etc. We were going to put her in foal to a 15.2hh arab stallion (she is 15hh). As much as I would have loved a Jaybee Leuwin foal, I thought she'd have troubles. Anyways, she went off to stud and came back, but didn't fall preggers likely to be associated with her age.

Not dwindling any hopes or whatever, but you need to be realistic on what is fair on the mare. Warmblood stallions are big boys! (but I'm absolutely no expert, so you can ignore me all you want :)) I'm sure others will have much much more to contribute :)

[mmc]

Ignoring for a minute whether or not the mare is breeding quality or not.......(A really nice temperament is not enough)

Sit down and honestly add up the costs of getting the mare pregnant, including vet costs, agistment service fees. Then think about feeding costs and even normal veterinary costs associated with a young horse till it is rideable. Remember you will have to pay someone to break this foal in in 4 years. (Lets assume you don't have the experience to do this yourself) Not to mention the skills required in handling young horses. Oh and there is a 50/50 chance it will need gelding.

Add all this up HONESTLY. Then have a look at what nice, well bred youngsters are selling for. You may be shocked. At least with a horse/foal already on the ground you can pick and choose. Your foal may be born with all kinds of unforeseen genetic, health or conformation problems.

Lecture over. I am sure your mare is nice but don't fall into the trap of breeding "just because she is a mare" Sorry lecture over now.

[koolstar]

We have bred 3 foals so far, and yes it is a big decision, but the joy when they born I think its worth it. But dont choose a to big stallion. We have a Gandalf-Grand Kavalier gelding and he is huge. All the Grand Kavalier ones are very big.

[Franca]

I've seen a number of Arabs here crossed with WB or draft but as far as I know the mare was the WB or draft in all cases and the smaller Arab was the sire. And only one of the breedings resulted in a foal that got the best out of both parents, which is another thing to consider. I have to say that's been true of most of the Arab/QH crosses I've seen as well. Arabs are conformationally so different from most other breeds that sometimes you can end up with some really unfortunate conformation when you cross them - the most successful Arab crosses I've seen have been with Morgans.

[Franca]

Thanks, mmc. That's my usual lecture/speech here, but I didn't want to assume the situation was just the same in Australia as in the U.S.

[JeznWoods]

Another thing to consider is you may not get a foal that grows to the size you were hoping for. I have an Arabian Warmblood mare, bought as a 3 month old foal. Her sire, a warmblood stallion, 16hh, dam, Arab mare, 14.3hh. It was thought that she might grow to 15hh, which would have been a good size for me. Ms Jezabel, now rising 7, only grew to 14.1hh.

I've had her since she was 6 months old, broke her in myself, and competed on her a couple of times, but she is just not what she was meant to be. I love her, she is my baby, and she has a home for life, but I don't ride her anymore.

I compete on my warmblood gelding, 16.2hh, bought as an unhandled 2 year old. He was only 15.2 when I bought him, but as least I knew he was in the right size range when I got him.

Sorry to add more to your decision considerations, but it would be a shame to breed a foal and not get what you were hoping for. If you go out and buy a horse you have a better idea of knowing what you are getting.

[mmc]

Thanks, mmc. That's my usual lecture/speech here, but I didn't want to assume the situation was just the same in Australia as in the U.S.

Franca, it is the same lecture everywhere:D I get on my soap box every time I see people make comments like this poster. The indiscriminate breeding of horses to mediocre mares must stop. Why do people have to breed a horse, be it mare or stallion, "just because it can"

I wish people took more time to really asses their horses. Not to mention the potential market for the offspring.

I was given the lecture I gave when I was young and had a mare. I realised that all I wanted was to breed her because I could. She was a truly great mare and very well performed, but has some serious conformation flaws that could have been passed on.

Hop off soapbox now.:mad:

[Wahoo]

Everyone else has covered all the 'sensible' aspects of deciding whether to breed with your mare or not ... I'll just add my own two bits for consideration
* Age of mare for first foal - she may take a while to go in foal or may not go at all
* First foals are usually smaller
* Be honest and assess your mares weaknesses, try to select a stallion to improve her confirmation. As far as personality/nature, the mare will imprint 80% of that on the foal, so don't rely on a stallion to pass on his nature ... it doesn't always work that way.
* Don't pick a huge stallion in the hope it throws a bigger foal, unlikely to happen since the mare determines the size and you don't want to overburden her for a first foal.
* Do you want to ever ride her again? Because it will be probably 2 years between breeding and weaning so she'll be an older horse to bring back into work at that time
* Do you have the time and money to dedicate to caring for a broodmare and foal? If anything goes wrong at foaling time, it can be hugely draining emotionally and on the bank account.
* Do you have company for the foal as it is growing up? I can tell you now it is a very lonely and abornormal life for a little foal to spend its childhood as an only youngster - much better mentally and physically for a foal to have mates its own age to learn and play with.
* You have at least 4 years before the foal will be old enough for you to even start to ride and even then, Arabian/WB are generally slow maturing - so do you see yourself still riding and able to care for a horse for the next 5 years?
* Do you have experience with handling a foal and do you have people around to help you with all the basic stuff like leading, feet, worming, halter, floating etc.
* would it be a better option to put your studfee money a term deposit and save up for a competition horse instead??

Having said all the 'sensible' things, I'm the first one to say I have enjoyed immensely the whole experience of having my mares in foal and raising two youngster.
I went through all the above questions and was able to confidently say I was ready for foals.
I had my TB riding mare who was 7 years old and her first foal. She isn't the worlds best put together horse conformation wise, but her temperament and trainability is delightful. So while others may have said 'why breed with her?', I felt I'd be happy with her offspring and I researched my WB stallions in depth. I now have a filly who has thankfully inherited her mothers nature and has improvements on the confirmation - purpose bred for me in the future.

The decision to breed with your mare is one you should go into with your eyes wide and wallet wide open ...
Cheers!
:-)

[Peachy]

Hi!
Personal experience: We crossed a 14.1hh pure bred arab mare with a near 18hh wb stallion. It was her 2nd foal. She had no difficulties at all. The result was a lovely 16.1hh arab/wb who currently successfully competes in efa showjumping. We did research before we did it. We did natural unassisted service (let them in together). Vet suggested that if stallion was too big, mare would put a stop to proceedings. I can see this would be a problem with AI. Perhaps try a smaller stallion for first foal (we went TB for first foal). All the talk of whether it would be a successful cross is subjective as to what your aims are.
Cheers!

[mmc]

Hi!
Personal experience: We crossed a 14.1hh pure bred arab mare with a near 18hh wb stallion. It was her 2nd foal. She had no difficulties at all. The result was a lovely 16.1hh arab/wb who currently successfully competes in efa showjumping. We did research before we did it. We did natural unassisted service (let them in together). Vet suggested that if stallion was too big, mare would put a stop to proceedings. I can see this would be a problem with AI. Perhaps try a smaller stallion for first foal (we went TB for first foal). All the talk of whether it would be a successful cross is subjective as to what your aims are.
Cheers!

Wow Peachy, you were lucky. I am sure it is the same for horses, but our experience was with cattle. We had a neighbours HUGE Brahman bull get in with our young Herefords. The farm manager will correct me with the numbers but we lost so many of the cows in calving because the calf was just so big. What a horrible way to die.

I think it is a big chance to take putting a much bigger stallion over a smaller mare. And I stick by my previous comments about buying a yearling or young horse before leaping into all the unknows with breeding. :D

[Helen...]

We had a neighbours HUGE Brahman bull get in with our young Herefords. The farm manager will correct me with the numbers but we lost so many of the cows in calving because the calf was just so big. What a horrible way to die.



:-( Thats horrible mmc. We've had Brahman bulls over Charolais and mature Hereford haven't had problems, but Brahman bulls are huge and the cows were fully mature. The only cow in recent years we've had problems with was the pet Jersey. Poor girl, two of the three calves she's had were still born. Anyway, that's enough about cows.

[mmc]

:-( Thats horrible mmc. We've had Brahman bulls over Charolais and mature Hereford haven't had problems, but Brahman bulls are huge and the cows were fully mature. The only cow in recent years we've had problems with was the pet Jersey. Poor girl, two of the three calves she's had were still born. Anyway, that's enough about cows.

I know this forum is about horses. :D

Helen, we normally do have Brahmans over our herefords, then charolais or angus over the braford breeders. These herefords were just baby girls waiting to grow up a bit more before meeting the big boys. It was just that the neighbours bull thought otherwise. Very sad. :mad:

[sehxiellz]

thanks everybody for the suggestions, and things to think about it, and yes all these questions have been flying through my head for a while.
still not sure on a decision yet, although we have had experience with foaling and many people around us have as well, would hate for something to happen. Still thinking deeply about it all, will let everybody know about our choice :)
Thanks again on the help!

[PhillipC]

Over the last few years I've been thinking I am going to need to replace by guy in a few years and have often considered getting a really nice TB mare and breeding my own next superstar. The more I go into it and the more I hear, breeding is such a lottery. A friend has a gorgeous mare with a temperament to die for who had to be retired from eventing when really showing great promise due to an unforseen injury (not caused by a conformation fault). She bred the mare to a good performance TB and did everything right throughout the mares pregnancy. The resulting filly, whilst very cute, was born with crooked legs. The finances weren't available to have surgery on them (as I believe they can do something about it), but the owner was devastated.

The more I go into it, the more I want to see what I am getting. I don't have a couple of years to breed another one, so when I am ready and my guy is ready to retire, I'll be out looking for something already on the ground.

This is just my personal opinion and preference. I'm not a risk taker.

And I echo Wahoo's comment 'The decision to breed with your mare is one you should go into with your eyes wide and wallet wide open ...'

[rick]

Wow Peachy, you were lucky. I am sure it is the same for horses, but our experience was with cattle. We had a neighbours HUGE Brahman bull get in with our young Herefords. The farm manager will correct me with the numbers but we lost so many of the cows in calving because the calf was just so big. What a horrible way to die.

I think it is a big chance to take putting a much bigger stallion over a smaller mare. And I stick by my previous comments about buying a yearling or young horse before leaping into all the unknows with breeding. :D

Had a very similar experience quite a few years ago and got well and truly fed up with trying to pull calves that were miles too big through a too small pelvic opening and in the finish having to shoot the heifer.

Lets just say that someone had a similar idea to Peachy's Vet (before my arrival) and I had to clean up the mess. :-(

[ann]

Yeah, life's tough on all those anonymous animals who don't make the headlines when horrible things happen to them.

[Franca]

The fact that you are thinking hard on it is a Good Thing. A bit of soul searching is never a waste of time. :)

I reread your first post and it seems that both your practical and "emotional" needs might best be served by finding a horse to buy that you could compete on now, and not put your mare at risk. It sounds as though you are quite attached to your mare, in a way that's a bit different from how you might feel if you'd bought her specifically for breeding purposes. Losing mares and/or foals is a heartbreaker that dedicated breeders are somewhat equipped to face, but those of us with one good mare for a partner may not be. And loss of a mare due to complications from pregnancy and foaling is a preventable loss, which is a recipe for guilt if anything goes wrong. Experience on the part of owners/breeders seems to have very little to do with the outcome - it's a gamble, pure and simple.

I know it's a grim question, but could you stand to lose your mare? When I ask myself that question about mine, the answer is a resounding "No". I wouldn't trade her away for anything. All other considerations aside, your goal is to keep your wonderful mare and have another super horse you can eventually compete on. If you breed her, there's a chance you could wind up with neither.

In any case, you are giving it enough thought that whatever you decide will be the right decision for you and that's what matters. :) I wish you the best of luck finding or breeding your next competition partner.