Dressage Queens....

[Adele]

sorry, way to much kiwi interest in this post.

[Equine Elegance]

Hey Adele,

How awful!!

I can't really offer any advice but try to ignore everyone who is saying nasty things.

When Rocky has been naughty I've had people come up to me and tell me how I should have ridden him. My guy also has a reputation, good or bad I don't know, but everyone seems to know him! It can be so irritating because none of them really know how much horse he is.

There have also been people come up to me and console me, and on almost every occassion they have been well known and respected riders, trainers, judges that I respect and I am grateful to them because they do know how difficult he can be.

Can you find one person that you respect and trust to talk to? That may be your best bet.

Just a thought, how are his teeth?

Hope everything calms down for you!
Dan

[Vera]

Hi Adele,
How absolutely tragic for you...

Don't listen to all the complaining/back stabing so and so's....

I too have been in similar situation, not where the horse was famous or anything but was very difficult... everyone told me I was mad to buy this horse as she had major problems and would never amount to anything.... well after a few breakthroughs with physical problems that no one else had bothered to follow through with and a ton of patience she has turned out to be one of the best horses I have ever owned........
Soooo you ow it to the horse and yourself to perservere......
I agree with E.E. surley there must be someone that you can trust and confide in... Makes it really hard when you don't even get to ride the horse without the "experts" watching.

I just really feel for you... and I don't think anyone that has been in any sort of similar situation would think that you are having a winge... without knowing you or the horse involved I think these people are being really really mean....... And of course when you fix the horse (just have faith that you will) then of course all these people will say 'Oh, I new he was a really good horse'' ......... it makes me sick...... then you will be able to tell them all where to get off.....

I fell really strongly about what you are going through, I had a lump in my throat when I was reading your post.....

Soooooo Don't give up.... if it's moral support you need I am sure everyone else on this forum will be right here with me in offering it to you

Come on you guys... Adele is hurting and needs some words of wisdom to cheer her up........

[Vera]

Just as an after/though... Your 'friend' happened to mention your instructor( in such a degrading fashion)...... what does your instructor think about this horse and the problems you are having with it.... did you get her/his opinion of the horse before you bought it.....

Also have you spoken to the previous owner of the horse about the problems which have cropped up.....He/she may be able to give you some insight into what's happening.... maybe they had a similar problem at some time......

Good Luck with it... keep your chin up...


Please keep us informed ................

[Jytte]

Geez...sounds pretty rough, Adele. I know what I'd be saying to them..."mind your own bloody business!" But that's just me.
If they make you feel so bad and treat you and your horse like garbage, then you should let them know how you feel and to shape up their act. If they still carry on, then obviously they aren't worth it.
Just where some people get off, I have no idea. Instead of giving you an earful they should put their supposed 'know-how' to good use, if they have any, and help you. Giving you an earful is nothing but a waste of air.

[Ivanka]

Come on you guys... Adele is hurting and needs some words of wisdom to cheer her up........

gee, thanks Vera... I really wouldn't know what to say. I've never been in such a situation and hope never to get into one. Adele, it's awefull what you're going through..

Although, I did have something similar happening when I was 16 and my horse was a very sh$&#tty mare. Everybody had an opinion, and I was at an age where you listen to everybody. It's so easy to tell someone to ignore it, but we don't. We want to be liked, we want to do the right thing. And we also want other people to like our horses. (after all, they are our 'kids' most of the time...)


I was going to say: just not ride where other people are for a few months until you've worked through this, but re-reading your post I assume you have your horse at a stable / barn where there are other riders present while you ride etc?

I wish you good luck and you can rant and rave as much as you want on this forum..... (as long as Ann let's you...) at least you will have it off your chest and you'll be able to sleep better at night.

good luck

[Adele]

Sorry deleted :cry:

[ann]

Ok, I have had a guts full so im having a rant.
Nothing wrong with that.

I do feel for you, but it seems to me that you aren't a complete beginner with horses, and you are obviously doing everything you can think of to find out what is causing the problems with the horse.

Without seeing what the horse is doing, it's not possible to offer an opinion as to the causes of his behaviour. My suggestion is to work with your trainer and other professionals, along with the previous owners, to try to work out what is causing the resistance. Yes, horses will try out a new owner, because they would like to be the alpha in the paddock. But if the resistance is only happening in one particular situation, then there's probably a physical reason for the behaviour.

If he's trying you out, then there will usually be more than one situation where he resists or tries you out in some way.

I've made a lot of mistakes over the years, dealing with my horses on the ground and from on their backs. All of them have forgiven me for every single one of these mistakes.

Keep us in the loop with this. He is such a pretty boy!

[Adele]

deleted, sorry guys :cry:

[ann]

Don't you just wish he could speak?!

Good luck with this problem, and don't forget to keep us informed on his progress.

[Cindy Medway]

Hi Adele,

"Been there done that"..... My first serious dressage horse I purchased (although not a famous horse) from an FEI rider, it was a purchase with the heart and not the head. I took my coach with me for the second look and ride, discussed at length and she adviced I should go for it! In hind-sight one could (and many did) say that the coach had not given me good advice clearly because it was in her best interest financially that I get a horse to ride and hence continue having weekly lessons!

This horse was in so many ways wrong for me, but it was love at first sight and every challenge I came up against made me more determined, I knew people were talking about me and my horse, and whilst it did hurt I didn't listen to them. Everyone becomes an expert after the event and yet if you asked many before you went ahead with the purchase they probably wouldn't know or tell you "don't do it".

Bottom line was, I loved this horse, I had a lot of fun with him but his size and conformation pre-disposed him to so many soundness issues it was not funny. I went down the track of listening to all the experts, professionals and witch doctors, at one stage my coach said "get him sound and sell him quick".......... In the last year of riding him, he was out of work more than in (and gee no lessons happening), after every treatment or spell he would come back good as gold and be sound for about 6 weeks. Finally after all the heartbreaking, hubby and I had a long talk and decided that this was his last chance, if he went sore again I would retire him. Well sure enough about 8 weeks into work I nominated for a comp (prelim/nov) but happened to be our local club championships (which I was also running) and he went sore half way thru the first test, started playing up BIG TIME. I retired out of the test, led him out and burst into tears as I knew that was it, I had to give up....... Hubby took the horse home, I regained myself and went about doing the scoring and running the day, can you imagine how I was feeling?????? Well then my test sheets came in the score room and the judge had written "If you wish to discuss your naughty horse feel free to talk to me"

The judge concerned is a high level judge who I have a lot of respect for and I guess all I am trying to say is that when people don't know all the facts they can only comment on what they see on the day. I also had a couple of people that day offer to take him out the back and lunge the crap out of him and sort him out, so I know exactly where you are coming from and just how it feels. Yes the horse was WRONG for my ability at the time, he was also WRONG for dressage, or should I say prone to early retirement because of his conformation, so I had all the "ride him thru it", "he's just having a lend of you", "he's a bludger", etc etc.

I do hope that you are able to get your horse thru his medical conditions and that this solves your problems, will look forward to hearing updates.

Oh and I did ring the judge the next day (when I was not so emotional) and told her that he was not just being naughty but that he was in pain and that I was retiring him. We had a long chat and she was sorry she had made the comment, but in fairness to the judge she had also seen him do this before. I still have my paddock ornament, sound as a bell in the paddock!

[Adele]

Deleted :cry:

[Emma]

Hi Adele,

I know exactly where you are coming from. My little fellow started doing this to me about a month ago - usually only when there were a heap of people around to see and discuss further amongst themselves.
I had a sneaking suspicion it was something to do with either selenium levels causing toxicity or kidneys or something along those lines. He had gone from almost perfect to absolute disaster within a week. He got that bad that trot and canter wouldn't happen at all. He'd just stop and bounce around.
So took him to the chiropractor, I also took him off all his hard feed and kept him on just hay and chaff (heaps of) put a chunk of rock salt in the feedbin and moped around for a few days. Needed some time to think it all through. He'd stopped drinking pretty much for no reason as well - which wasn't helping the sore muscles at all.
I did a bit of reading on the web and asked a few people and decided to try a more natural way of caring for him. My boy is out in a paddock 24 hours at the moment as we don't have stables for them so he can walk around and walk off any soreness. So I couldn't understand what was bringing on this behaviour.
What I've worked out is that he just had a build up in his system, and when I got the chiropractic work done, he also started Bowen treatments at the same time - I guess I stirred up a bit of rubbish in his system. I've always fed pre-mixed feeds and given him supplements to help build him up with his work as he was a midget when I bought him.
Now I'm just taking a step back, starting from scratch and in the past few days he's a totally new horse (touchwood!).
I actually got in touch with Victoria Ferguson to design a natural diet for him, as I wanted to but didn't want to go making up my own amounts of stuff. We've also started him on a course of herbal tonics so to speak to help cleanse his system out. As a baby he had an injury and when he was carstrated he suffered a bad infection, so had heaps of antibiotics as a youngster with the previous owners. Apparently this can all build up in the system over time and just hang around. I think it all just came to a head and his body said give me a break!
So we're back to square one, eating naturally, working on really basic stuff to build him up slowly, and learning to be very patient with him. And every second day dreaming of winning the lotto to buy that really nice dutch bred horse with absolutely no issues in life what so ever, thats an absolute dream to sail through to Grand Prix.....mmmmm... but it's not what you don't have that matters, it's what you do with what you've got!
So keep on keeping on.
It does get you down everyone giving you advice, but then you hit a point where you gather up all your strength and just get on with it, the way your instinct tells you to go about it. You know your horse better then anyone. Plus I believe horses can be totally different with different people, so the old owner might have had a completley different set of issues as to what you will.
Good Luck.

[Jytte]

Yowzers! Toxic shock! Shounds pretty scary. Hope he recoves quickly and gets back to normal for you :)

[Equine Elegance]

It also sounds like withdrawl type symptoms from the change of feed. ie, you aren't feeding the selenium. WHY on earth was she feeding it??? Doesn't everyone know it's toxic in large amounts?

My last horse was on a very high protein diet before we brought him home, and when we did, we changed him over to a low protein "natural" diet. Very slowly he got sick with kidney problems from the high protein diet until it peaked at the PC State Champs in Rockhampton, 12 hours from home. I have no idea why he got sick after we took him off it, but he did and it sounds like a similar situation to yours. He didn't get naughty, but he did stop wanting to work and he didn't cope with the rock hard ground up north.

We used KA powder to flush out his kidneys etc, and you could actually pick up the residue from his urine off the ground with a teaspoon! KA is excellent for extreme cases and they say to use it once a month, but unless it is severe like our case was, we don't use it. It can irritate the kidneys severely and actually make them worse (behaviour wise - probably from pain) while they are on it. We also took him off everything apart from hay for 3 weeks and it helped him immensely.

I don't think that getting rid of the selenium is going to be a quick process, but you should have a lot happier horse when he's "clean".

I hope you can sort this out quickly for your boy, and for you too. :)

edit to add: Quite a few of the "b-quiet" type pastes that are used as legal calmers before events are based on selenium and vitamin E. Was she using it as a calming supplement? There's an important notice on most of the pastes that selenium is toxic to horses and the paste should only be given if they do not have any selenium in their existing diet. (There are minimal traces of it in most pre-mixed feeds)

[Vera]

Gee, toxic levels of selenium..... Why on earth was she feeding him extra selenium....... and how do you go about getting rid of it.
All the DQ problems aside we probably all should take note of reasons this happened, the problems it has caused, and how you went about fixing it.........
I too feed my horses on the Victoria Ferguson natural diet, have done for years, also use her herbal remedies from her book (my bible).... People at comps. are always asking me what I feed my horses as they always look so good and have lovely coats.... thing is when I tell them they don't believe me, they think I have some magic potion that I use that I'm keeping secret........Have also had very few health problems with colic/ulsers etc. since using this diet... so simple and much cheaper than all the commercial mixes....

Good luck Adele...
Please keep us updated...

[Adele]

deleted

[Jytte]

Sounds great!
Will you try to slowly wean him back onto the paddock in the long run?

[Vera]

Gee that's great Adele...

Wouldn't it be great if that's the end of all your problems......

Hope your going to stick-it to all those D.Q.'s when you get him going great !!!!!!!!!!

Please keep us updated.....

[Adele]

and yet again, another great post by adele, which has to be deleted. Sorry guys :cry:

[ann]

I can start riding again soon at my normal hours just to show those DQ's how wrong they were! "Whip & ride him through this" yea right!
It's so wonderful to hear a success story, Adele.

And in the future, every time these people bring out the 'whip and ride him through' solution, you can remind them of how spectacularly wrong they were with their diagnosis of your horse and how it would have wrecked a wonderful horse if you hadn't had the sense to look beyond the obvious.

[Judi Ruffo]

Selenium is used in hroses that Tye up, in fact (Mine is prone to this ) we have to ensure that our horse gets the right levels of Vit E & Selinium, maybe previous owners did not realize that you can overdose the horse on it.

I use a diet formui;ated By Victoris Ferguson and I'm very happy so far.

[Adele]

and another one..... :?

[Jytte]

the 'whip and ride him through' solution.

I had that told to me just the other day. After all I have written about dressage abuse and the like, I was shocked silent when someone said not to "take that sh** from the horse. Just grab an empty plastic pipe and whip the bast**d through. He'llnever do it again."
I was like, no, he'll never let me near him again. Geez the old bushy mindframe is so violent!

[Ivanka]

"take that sh** from the horse. Just grab an empty plastic pipe and whip the bast**d through. He'llnever do it again."


Jytte, I can't believe that!!!
Do people actually still behave like that? That is so neanderthal behavior! I thought we stopped doing that in the dark ages, around the same time we learned that washing our hands was a good way to stop spreading deseases...


grunt....

[Vera]

Unfortunately people of this mentality are still abundant, I know quite a few that think theirs is the only soloution to fixing horse problems.....

I try to steer well clear of them... doesn't help the poor horses they have though.........

[Jytte]

Yep they're still out and about...and funnily enough can't see anything wrong with hat they're saying. It's quite sad really. I just shake my head and don't even bother responding to them because frankly it would eb a waste of breath.

[Adele]

ladedadeda.... sorry guys

[ann]

Org, once we get on top of the high seleium thing & start going well again, we hit another bump in the road, and yet again the DQ talk starts.
When does the road start getting straight & flat again. It seems as if we hit another brick wall as soon as we figure out how to get over it......
Oh, dear. What's happened now, Adele?

You do realise that we're all involved now in this horse's progress, having seen him beat the selenium thing. ;-)

[Adele]

....

[Freya]

Can anyone direct me to a good link/have any info on 'Kissing Spine'?

Hey Adele,
I have never heard of that before, so got onto google and had a look...here are a few links, i'm sure there is plenty more info on it too. Hope it helps you a bit. Has your horse been diagnosed with it?

http://www.equisearch.com/magazines/Equus/backpain_treating_070803/

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/dictionary/k.html

[Judi Ruffo]

When I was warming up at the CDI and another rider was also warming up and this seemed to involve very noisy whip cracking, and the horse getting hotter and hotter to the point he went sidewase round the arena, my poor soft girl was rolling her eyes every time this person rode near us and I ended up leaving the warm up area, OK she got her hors moving and wow, but full of tension, his ears were fully pricked and he was really uptight. the trainer stood very very close to the edge of the ring and once again my girl was not going near him.

MAybe my horse will never move like hers but at least we enjoy ourselves with no tension caused by me. Ho hum might take up knitting

[Equine Elegance]

Our old arab mare had it, she was extremely short in the back and had no wither. With regular chiro and muscle release it helped relieve the pain. She used to buck something shocking! Once the initial treatment relieves the pain, we just got the chiro or muscle therapist out when she started to get cranky under saddle.

You aren't having much luck are you? Got our fingers crossed for you!

[Adele]

and another one

[Freya]

Hope eveything goes well for you now...keep us informed on how he goes :-)

[ann]

Few Im so relieved, I had the Chiropractor & a joint specialist out today and they both agreed that it was in the back, but not kissing spine. There were about 5 vertebrae out in his back, 1 in his poll, 2 in is wither (just at the base) and 2 in the rump. The 2 in the rump have been there for quite a while & he said thats the reason why they sold this horse, and for the money that they did. He would have been doing exactly what he is doing to me now!
Hopefully now he is fixed & I can get back on in 2 days and see how it goes.
Good luck, Adele.

Keep us in the loop on his progress.

[Ivanka]

oh, wow, Adele.. I hope he's ok now.


please let us know how things are going as I am extremely interested! (since my horse has back problems as well....)

[Vera]

You poor thing, Adele......... this horse has really put you through the wringer......hopefully that will be the end of all your problems and you can soon get on and enjoy him.
Best of luck for you first ride back on him, we all have our fingers crossed for both you and the horse.......

[Adele]

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